i been doin some thinkin...
now i have been considering the differences in gender roles as constructed by my own society and this one since my ass got here, and actually quite a bit before that since i have long been of the opinion that things just look different from the outside...just as corseted short of breath british bitches liked to talk shit about the inhumanity of womens treatment in the east, where harem inhabiting no men alone with being muslim women were shocked to discover that women were expected to be continually undergoing some form of garment torture and in the company of other women and men...
all im sayin is its easier to criticize from the outside and i personally think that a loud critique of machismo masks a hidden rascism...
that our shit is just as bad in some ways or worse, better in others...
that cultures are like people, there are areas in which they got some major growing up to do and areas where they hella advanced...
that said...initially i found that the most difficult thing about being here is that this culture lacks some of the advances in conprehension of gender, gender roles as they are constructed by society, the posibilities of queer and genderqueer culture that i take for granted in the bay area, along with the understanding of women somewhat common to my country, as people, not necesarily people who are ruled by thier biological gender in terms of opportunities and desires...
heres what..in this country women gained the vote in 1949. the work force is about 30% women despite the fact that women actually outnumber men in the universities...up until last year there was nothing legal that resembled divorce...and there continues to be no legal abortion...
women are not treated like men, they are treated differently, like...well like this societys conception of women...
women my age in general dress hella femme, outnumber guys in schools but usually study humanities..seem pretty independant and outspoken but seem to take gender roles for granted in certain senses...they seem accostomed to being addressed and treated differently...
heres what.
dudes be hella hollering up in here, i mentioned this yes? that every man who sees me feels pretty free to openly stare and/or comment...the difference is that its pretty respectful...i mean generally they whistling, they might be like like i love you or marry me or ay mi hijita o oye muñeca o moreno o que rica or they might just make kissy sounds...heres my point, its obviously a certain kind of dude who will yell at you on the street right? and here its seemingly much more common...but they dont really say violent or even overtly sexual stuff...
and then theres the continual elbow holding door opening drink foya pouring seat on the bus giving that goes on all the fuckin time...
even in a gay club gay men make room for me to get by cause im a chick...
you can imagine how much this confuses me...now add that i kinda dig that girls wear a lotta skirts and i personally like to do so as well and its hot as fuck so you have some kind of hyperfemenine rach happening here and then folks be waiting for me to walk through doors first and putting me into cabs and buses and buying my drinks and its just oughtta control...
and then theres this genuine feeling of respect for women, dudes here seem to actually like women...my theory is that this part can be traced to religion...
i feel like even though theres some crazy misogynism inherent in all aspects of christianity, catholicism has always been a little more influenced by and for idigenous beliefs and has mantained a tiny tiny goddess aspect in the form of mary, i mean yeah shes only ok cause she gods mother and a virgin, which is a pretty tall order...chicks are cool, like if they the mother of god and a virgin...still, she more than cool...they love some mary..
now consider the crazy repressed woman equALS sin puritan freaks who settled our country...heres the deal, the most machisto sexist freak i could meet here would have nothing on actually hating women like they got back home...yeah hed be convinced that her mission in life is poppin out puppies and whatnot but as for considering her very substance vile? nope you gotta hit the good ole u s of a for some real misogyistic action...
so heres the deal right off the bat i noticed that i had been defined by this culture as a young woman and that this meant certain things like how i was to be treated and whatever...and that unlike in the bay area i never get to take a break, i can never be a boy here..never...
but i also started to notice that they dont have that underlying violence and hatred that permeates american machismo in my opinion...that i am always a woman here but thats a pretty cool thing to be...
next week my thoughts on sex and the catholics...stay tuned..
all im sayin is its easier to criticize from the outside and i personally think that a loud critique of machismo masks a hidden rascism...
that our shit is just as bad in some ways or worse, better in others...
that cultures are like people, there are areas in which they got some major growing up to do and areas where they hella advanced...
that said...initially i found that the most difficult thing about being here is that this culture lacks some of the advances in conprehension of gender, gender roles as they are constructed by society, the posibilities of queer and genderqueer culture that i take for granted in the bay area, along with the understanding of women somewhat common to my country, as people, not necesarily people who are ruled by thier biological gender in terms of opportunities and desires...
heres what..in this country women gained the vote in 1949. the work force is about 30% women despite the fact that women actually outnumber men in the universities...up until last year there was nothing legal that resembled divorce...and there continues to be no legal abortion...
women are not treated like men, they are treated differently, like...well like this societys conception of women...
women my age in general dress hella femme, outnumber guys in schools but usually study humanities..seem pretty independant and outspoken but seem to take gender roles for granted in certain senses...they seem accostomed to being addressed and treated differently...
heres what.
dudes be hella hollering up in here, i mentioned this yes? that every man who sees me feels pretty free to openly stare and/or comment...the difference is that its pretty respectful...i mean generally they whistling, they might be like like i love you or marry me or ay mi hijita o oye muñeca o moreno o que rica or they might just make kissy sounds...heres my point, its obviously a certain kind of dude who will yell at you on the street right? and here its seemingly much more common...but they dont really say violent or even overtly sexual stuff...
and then theres the continual elbow holding door opening drink foya pouring seat on the bus giving that goes on all the fuckin time...
even in a gay club gay men make room for me to get by cause im a chick...
you can imagine how much this confuses me...now add that i kinda dig that girls wear a lotta skirts and i personally like to do so as well and its hot as fuck so you have some kind of hyperfemenine rach happening here and then folks be waiting for me to walk through doors first and putting me into cabs and buses and buying my drinks and its just oughtta control...
and then theres this genuine feeling of respect for women, dudes here seem to actually like women...my theory is that this part can be traced to religion...
i feel like even though theres some crazy misogynism inherent in all aspects of christianity, catholicism has always been a little more influenced by and for idigenous beliefs and has mantained a tiny tiny goddess aspect in the form of mary, i mean yeah shes only ok cause she gods mother and a virgin, which is a pretty tall order...chicks are cool, like if they the mother of god and a virgin...still, she more than cool...they love some mary..
now consider the crazy repressed woman equALS sin puritan freaks who settled our country...heres the deal, the most machisto sexist freak i could meet here would have nothing on actually hating women like they got back home...yeah hed be convinced that her mission in life is poppin out puppies and whatnot but as for considering her very substance vile? nope you gotta hit the good ole u s of a for some real misogyistic action...
so heres the deal right off the bat i noticed that i had been defined by this culture as a young woman and that this meant certain things like how i was to be treated and whatever...and that unlike in the bay area i never get to take a break, i can never be a boy here..never...
but i also started to notice that they dont have that underlying violence and hatred that permeates american machismo in my opinion...that i am always a woman here but thats a pretty cool thing to be...
next week my thoughts on sex and the catholics...stay tuned..
posted by Rachel R. @ 1:11 PM
6 Comments:
At 8:35 AM,
Jeff Pollet said…
What a great post. It's sort of selfish of me to think it, but those of us who read your stuff about Chile are really lucky to benefit from your experience and insight. I say this mostly because I'm a chickenshit-typical-American-type who has never left the US. So, thanks.
And you make some extremely important points regarding cultural comparisons, and the inherent dangers in doing such comparisons. I think the whole attitude of "that our shit is just as bad in some ways or worse, better in others..." seem immanently appropriate.
Plus, hearing your take on being a woman there, and what that means to those around you (and to you!) verses what it means to be a woman here--especially here in the bay area--is really interesting. What do you mean, exactly, when you say that you can 'never be a boy' there?
I defer to your judgement and experience regarding all this stuff, first of all because you're a woman and I'm not, and secondly because you're in Chile and I'm not (thirdly because of the aforementioned less-than-well-travelled-ness).
Given that caveat--and I can't stress it enough--I do have some concerns regarding some of what you said about Catholocism and respect for women. I get that Mary is important for Catholics, and even more important for some catholics who sorta took on Mary as a replacement for other sorts of Mother-God dieties when Catholicism came to the region. I get that even more given how you explained it. But I resist the notion that this somehow leads to more respect for women.
In oversimplified terms, I think of this as the competing mysoginies of 'thinking the very substance of women as vile'(which you note comes to us in US culture from our Puritan roots) and 'putting women on a pedestal'(which you note comes, in Chile, in part from their brand of Catholicism and reverence for Mary). Again, I'm oversimplifying, but both seem to be different versions of objectification, and for me it's hard to say which may be better or worse for women. And in fact, they usually work in tandem to some degree.
Your experience of men feeling free to stare/comment/etc. is really interesting. I get the feeling that the sense of respect that you feel from men there tempers the staring and comments for you...?...and perhaps the feeling of respect makes you feel more safe/respected re:the men there? What I mean is this: Here(US) it may not be the catcalls/staring per se that are sexist/mysogynist, but the fact that they exist within this particular power structure, and then become, always--without regard to the intentions of the men doing the staring--tools of oppression and misogyny. Whereas in Chile, perhaps because the staring/etc. happens within a culture of respect for women, there's a completely different vibe to it...?
Again, I'm struggling here, and I think you have a better handle on things. Just trying to get more clear on it all.
Because here's the thing: After doing a little bit of research about Chile and religion and domestic violence, it seems to me that the 'respect' (again, from here, given my ignorance) you're feeling is a mask, is exactly the sort of respect that makes women into objects, albeit in a different way than the puritains did/we do here.
One article says:
"One in four women in Chile has suffered physical domestic violence. And seven in ten report having been the victim of psychological violence."
I doubt that the stats are much better in the US--not trying to compare better and worse, just pointing out how bad it is there, even given that there is a feeling of respect 'on the street' so to speak.
Plus, the new divorce law? Even if it is a huge stride forward, it's severely limiting: A woman has to wait three years until the divorce is official, during which time she can't buy a house, manage her own money, etc. without her husband's permission.
Also, the whole idea that Catholicism, even Chilean's brand of Catholicism, isn't sort of inherently misogynist is just tough for me to get over. (I still haven't had any Catholic--or Christian for that matter--explain to me how it is that God's impregnating Mary without asking her what she thought about it could create any kind of religion but a misogynist one.) This may be a blind spot for me...and again I'm curious to hear more of what you have to say regarding it because I think you understand it better than I do, but check out this article regarding what the author sees as a direct relationship between Catholicism and domestic violence:
Catholic Church Teaching and Domestic Violence
This all seems to fly in the face of what you intimate:"and then theres this genuine feeling of respect for women, dudes here seem to actually like women...my theory is that this part can be traced to religion..."
I'm curious to hear more about what you mean by 'dudes here seem to actually like women'--in what ways, aside from holding doors open, being respectful of space, buying drinks and such? Not that those things don't count for anything--they do, and in your experience they count for a lot--especially in comparison to here, where your space isn't respected as much. But how much do they count in the face of the institutional misogyny of domestic violence and political oppression?
I wonder--could there be something going on there regarding how you are treated as a woman-who's-not-from-there? Or that most of the people you know there are college students? (I don't know if that's even true...just guesses.) Or could there be some other stuff going on there along the lines of the very American/Puritan idea that "I love you so much that I'll make you MINE." sort of misogyny?
Most likely there are all sorts of things going on there that I can't begin to understand because I'm not there, and I still think your points in that regard hold. Which is why I'm asking for clarification. :)
Ok. Sorry for the rant. I hope that you understand that I really do think that you have a leg up on this stuff, but, y'know, I just always have some questions/comments. :)
Can't WAIT to hear your views on Catholics and sex. (I had a friend from Brazil--a woman--who once said that Brazillians are the most devout catholics because they have more to confess...)
oh! one more thing: From what I've read about Chile, it's a country MAJORLY in transition because it's a budding democracy. So maybe a lot of what I have said is stuff that is changing fundamentally. One article I read said that the number of marriages has declined 45% in the past 10 years, mostly because of the new democracy combined with the fact that women want to retain control of their money and lives, so they have more often refused to get married in the first place--because given the crappy divorce laws, once they're married, it's tough to get out, even now.
At 11:55 AM,
Jennifer said…
and this is why people should travel. duh. i need to get out there...
like jeff said, though, i feel grateful that i can learn things through your experiences :)
At 1:20 AM,
VI said…
my two best friends in county jail were ho slappin muslims. not really bad guys. they still haven't sent me that hash though. hmm
At 3:28 PM,
Rachel R. said…
jeez i need to repost to anwer all these questiones and respond to all these comments...ok where to begin where to begin...
im gonna say lets focus on the religion stuff, the very fact that catholicism allows the sort of syncretism that contains indigenous beliefs, even while inherently negating the importance of them...well thats the wacky catholic catch 22
i agree that idealization of women is just as far from an understanding of women as actual people as demonization...but i dont think thats what im talking about here when i say that guys seem to actually like and respect women...
first of all im not in any way assuming that the inherent problems of any form of power over others(like the patriarchal sistemas that operate in different ways in n and latin amer) are somehow erased or nonexistant just cause some dude gives me his seat on the bus...
maybe religion wasnt the way to go bc what im thinkin is that there are several directions but that just seemed an obvious one....because if you dont deep down believe that all women are vile and sinful (and im not saying that catholicism doesnt contain this, i just think it contains less of it and more possible exceptions like saints and mary that seem to me just ruled out by reform and protestant movements which were really marked by a sort of intensely idividual approach to god that really abhored any kind of middle man, fact is that sometimes middlemen can be chicks...and thats eliminated by puritans, as well as anything that seems extraneous, luxurious, ritualistic, ie understood to be linked to what we call feminine...
k where was i?
oh yeah pedastals..im not sure if thats it, i mean what if its language? like how theres a possibity for a version of just abt anything that requires/provides the gender ident that basically negates the "norm" that so troubles english...words that assume a male gender like mailman and postman ect.. now i know v will argue abt the inherent masculine bias en good ole español but id like to point out that i asked someone her what youd call a woman police officer and they said policia...
k
what about holding on to both the parents names? seems to me like a matrilinear system...
i dunno how to quantify it exactly, its like...when i girl it up...people notice...i get that at home too but it isnt the same really...
its like this genuine liking of and apreciation of femininity which in general i do feel is a tool that reward conformity to societal standards...but you know when you meet guys who actually like women? i would say that there is a major part of the population in the us who deep down hate women and want to control them or have power over them or fuck them or whatev...
which is why i generally dont date straight men, guys who are more fluid in their sexuality are generally more fluid in terms of gender...and less likely to actually hate women if they in some fashion identify with em..
k heres my point, theres like an inverse relation here...like id say in the states (depending on which part, ima say that its different in my area)prolly more than half of the men you meet dont actually like or respect women and here its the other way around..
im also gonna say that the enfasis on family and the notable matriarch of the fam positions available to la women, while still falling under systematic patriarchy, and still in service to it, provide a greater set of possibly powerful roles for women...
heres the thing, i feel like there wont be a serious female candidate for president in the states for probably another thirty years...
it is the land of extremes but the thing about it is that in the states there is a palpable sensation to its forms of misogyny of threat of violence, and i dont really feel that here but yeah...
clearly there still exists a violent oppression in the form of domestic violence...and i dont really know the stats on sexual abuse and rape...but the deal is that back home sexual violence is systematically used or threatened to keep women under control...im gonna say that there is even more of that mindset of yer automatically vulnerable to violence if you are a woman here..
if i had a nickel for every time some dude was like oh its not safe for you to...
and granted im around college kids, not families...i dont really know what the typical fam is like here...
but still i feel like not being actively hated is nice...while on the other hand im gonna say that the blatant objectification of women is far worse...i mean just watch latin tv where they dont so much bother with plotlines as window dressing for the hot babes scantily clad, here they just send on the bikini chicks...dunno...and thats what i mean about being a boy
at home in the bay area i get to opt out of the fuckin beauty pageant that is being born under the sign of woman...
i get to wear clothes or facial expressions that clearly state that i have opted out, that i have self identified as other, and for the most part people recognize these signals and respect them...
they may not consciously do so but when my clothes and body language say im not a girl today, people treat me differently, not the way im treated when it all says im a girl..
here that consciousness of fluid gender roles doesnt exist...
anyway its too hot to stay in this cafe longer so ima sign off fer now...
At 9:36 AM,
k said…
perhaps some of what you are experiencing has less to do with religion although in any culture's history, spirtuality always plays a key role, and more to do with the structure of the society itself, by that I mean each person's role on a day to day basis. here in the US, the roles of the genders have become mixed, reversed, erased...lots of things - it is no longer the man's sole responsibility to provide food for the table and it is no longer the woman's obligation to provide children from her loins. women have proven and fought for a stronger role in society and with that our view of women as fragile flowers that need protection has deteriorated. hence, less door holding, more aggression.
now I am only guessing, because my experience with latin and south american countries is only through touring and travel, not actual immersion, but I would say that in many of those cultures, there is still a heavily relied upon role structure. domestic violence still exists because men (and the law) still view women as possessions. but the 'respect' you see or experience may come from a less respectful place, than the inherent need of the possessor to 'take care of" his possessions. For instance (I will grossly oversimplify here), a good cowboy will oil his saddle, feed and water his horse (before himself) and keep his weapon clean - this seems like very respectful behaviour, but in fact is simply practical because, in return, his saddle will not crack, his horse will not fall, and his weapon will not backfire. Certainly a woman is more complicated than this, but perhaps the behaviour is not that inherantly different. Buy your woman (or any woman) drinks, tell her she is pretty, hold the door for her and she will look upon you with favor and not break and bear many sons...(be happy in her role as child bearer)....or something like that. Of course, once she is yours (marriage) it is your responsibility to discipline her when she is misbehaving...and there we have domestic violence. and certainly, this attitude, behaviour still exists in the US...it's just been attacked and dissected more here - women have taken a greater stand...but some would argue that the family (as a unit) has suffered...you don't see as many large, tight-knit, loyal to your brother kind of families here as I would guess are still prevalent in latin and south america....not that this doesn't also have it's problems, but that is a whole other discussion...
I do agree with the argument about Catholicism and Protestantism...there is a very different relationship with God going on here and consequently a very different treatment of sex and gender. Mary is the spokesperson of the people to God...she embraces teh people and nurtures them and is the substitute for the goddess in christian religions. But in the protestant arm, Mary's role is diminished...and the attitude towards women is as well....definitely an interesting vein of this conversation.
at any rate - just my two cents...but, this is a great discussion.
At 9:24 AM,
Jeff Pollet said…
this is one of those subjects that is so FREAKIN' BIG (as vee sort of intimated, by noting that she can't wait to have you here to talk to you about this) so as to make me want to comment all day long and write my own post to which everybody might comment so I can then comment on their comments and they can write a post about...
So big that it feels a little bit daunting. One thing I will say, is you got me looking at various aspects of Chilean history, especially the role that women played in the creation of democracy and overthrow of dictatorships.
As you can probably guess from my first comment, I'm a bit skeptical about the whole respecting women thing, but I do defer to your personal knowledge of the subject (especially as to how things work in Chile) as well as vee's. Also, your point about electing a woman as president sort of brought it home for me--there is something going on here in the US that I think may keep that from happening for a long while yet, and there must be something going on in Chile to be examined. I'm guessing that in the case of this particular person being elected, that it has something to do with the aforementioned role that women had in overthrowing the dictatorship and creating a democracy--apparently women were on the forefront of it all. But I'm also more inclined, having read what you wrote, ra, and thought about it some, to think that maybe 'Catholicism' as it exists there is fundamentally different from the brand that I'm used to dealing with.
Respect is a complex thing, it seems, along with disrepect. (Just as a for-instance, would I be respecting *you* to just nod and agree with everything you said, or is it more respectful to (respectfully) disagree? Does my gender affect the answer to that question? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question--it's something that comes up a lot for me.)
But I will say that your political example carries more weight with me--maybe just because I haven't experienced living there, and have rarely been on the negative side of sexist comments--and after finding out that there is actually a governmental organization created with the expressed purpose of creating a more even playing field for women in politics and elsewhere in Chile (akin to the depeartment of defense or education, here), I'm even more inclined to agree.
Thanks for introducing me to this stuff--the history of women's movement in Chile is pretty darn amazing.
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